Girls are different from boys - apparently
Posted by Joanna on Thursday, 10 Jul 2008
So tonight was the Silicon Welly magazine launch party (which we twittered about yesterday), and naturally I was there, representing for the Wellingtonista. I was interested to see that in this IT networking occasion, the ratio of guys to girls was about 7/2, and in talking to the rare woman there, I found that - like me - the majority of them worked in project management, comms or organisation. As Wellington's official Queen of the Geeks Brenda has asked before (sorry, I can't find the link, maybe she'll comment with it) - where are all the female programmers at? And if you look at the cover of this issue of Start-Up, you'll see that only ONE of the Silicon Welly honorees is female. What's going on, people?
I don't have the answers, so I suppose all I can do is promote some gender-separate events. Pretty Pretty Pretty which is the girlie site I run with Welllingtonista PAG Amy, is having a big girlie party to celebrate our third (month) anniversary, and if you're a lady, you're invited. Meanwhile, in response, the boys are holding another Chap's Night that you might happen to come across. Enjoy! 
One of the strong beliefs of second-wave feminism was that men and women had only minor biological differences. Genitals, muscle mass, but nothing different in brains or intellect.
Except now there's been research done that shows that men's and women's brains are different. Simon Baron-Cohen (cousin of you know who) is a leading researcher in this. His theory is that men are more systematic and women are more empathic. (Web page with tests here.)
So could it be that there are more male programmers because they find it easier, more enjoyable? And fewer woman because it doesn't come as naturally (or the ones who do find it easy are rarer)?
Or maybe it's just that there are all these female programmers out there, but they're shy.
...brains are different.
Corrected :)
The first and early computer programmers were all women - even today some countries (India, Malaysia, others i forget) have mostly female programmers.
It's not a wiring problem in this case.
"men are more systematic and women are more empathic"
That's a much stronger statement than SBC actually makes.
He identifies two extremes - systematizing and empathising - which he calls "male" and "female" (I understand he regrets that choice of name now) - and says that there are more men with extreme systematizing and more women with extreme empathizing. But there are plenty of men with "female" brains and vice versa.
One thing I've read is that there used to be more female programmers and analysts than there are now; likewise computer science enrolments from women have actually gone down in recent years. I don't think that's from innate inclination - I think it's from cultural stereotypes about what women's capabilities are. And unfortunately, like other very male dominated fields, now that this has happened, there is a hard core of men who make life for women colleagues very unpleasant, which you can see any time a site like Slashdot or BoingBoing features a woman with skills in the field.
My guess is that there would be more female programmers if it weren't for men (and women) sending subtle and not-so-subtle signals that it's men's work and they should keep out. Probably not 50%, but more than the tiny minority we have now. I regard every woman who is put off as a loss - once for herself, having lost the possibility of a satisfying career, and once for society, having lost a talent from contributing in its proper place.
Yes, I meant in proportion.
and that amazing woman is clare tanner from www.bookhabit.com.
she's inspirational.
I'd rather the ratio wasn't 7-2 either, and many others feel the same, we discuss this plenty, IT has a way to go, but if you look back to events even a year ago, its clearly getting better, and I think the focus should be on where we want to get to and what we can do to get there - a well balanced community.
All events are cool but I'm really not into gender specific events, I personally have no interest in hanging out at a guys only event, couldn't think of anything worse actually, which is why we're trying to make these events less geeky and more just what they are, smart interesting people making it happen.
What I'd like to see is people genuinely work on getting more of a balance to the community. Promoting the gap only widens it. We're young, we'd all rather hang out with a balance of people, so lets work on getting past it for the good of all : )
Hi Tim, thanks for responding. I realise that in my write-up I forgot to mention that I had a good time and that I think these events are really good - my previous criticisms about the lack of female bloggers represented at UP aside,
My promotion of the PrettyPrettyPretty party was just piggy-backing onto this post, it really has no relation to what I see is the issue at hand - a lower number of women in IT. It would have been more relevant to highlight the upcoming Girl-Geek Dinner, but since that's all sold out I figured it wasn't fair to make women who missed out on tickets feel bad about it!
SAS programmer? Does that mean that she like, tortures people, and brainwashes them, and teaches them to kill with their bare hands, etc?
I prefer to imagine her teaching advanced lethal hairdryer skills.
Remember how you asked me if I had a black eye, and I gave you an excuse...
It's not OK.
I will stealthily confiscate her curling tongs tomorrow to keep you safe.
"Promoting the gap only widens it."
Umm, isn't it just pointing out the obvious rather than promoting anything?
Gender separate events are nothing to get your knickers in a twist about (not that I am suggesting you wear knickers ;-) people gather together in all manner of social and professional groups. Most of us are members of more than one tribe and I don't think that a group of women getting together to paint their toenails (or discuss coding as the case may be) implies that we are all going to secede and form "the pretty geek girl nation" a la Tuhoe.
All that said, I wish you well in attaining balance in your community and that event sounded very interesting.
I think separate events have their place, not just for genders but for people of different ethnicity's as well.
But with all of those if the goal is not to isolate but to support and strengthen they are a good thing.
As an example for some women, having a female mentor can be useful as they are taught how to bypass any potential problems specific to their gender.
I have my own web company in wellington, there are 5 of us working in the company and we are ALL female.
Our clients are based around wellington, the US (mainly Silicon Valley), Canada, and the UK.
I have worked in companies with guys in the past, I have also had many arguments with guys who think they know the answer to getting females into technology. Part of me think their belief that they have all the answers is part of the reason why there are so few still. It's a male dominated place, full of egos and exaggeration and the typical 'entrepreneur' shows a lot of character traits that a lot of women find a tad distasteful.
I think companies like mine really do do things differently, and our customers seem to agree. I also think this makes us an important part of the solution. In the past few months since we have been solely female, I have noticed a MASSIVE increase in our combined confidence that we are as good as any one else and in ourselves and, once again, our customers are loving us for it.
I completely disagree with the idea that exclusive gender events are stupid, people who say that have never felt like a minority. But I don't think they are the only part of the solution, and all over the world, there are more and more female initiatives around building up the female way of doing things - we are involved in a few ourselves that ARE having an impact.
Basically (after my rant) I have come to believe that the reason why girls still shy away from tech is because when they go for it, they are expected to act like a guy - for many subtle reasons. If we can build our own culture and way of doing things, the prospect will be far more appealing!
Sorry for the rant, it's just a topic I feel a know a little about and feel very passionate about!
building up the female way of doing things
the reason why girls still shy away from tech is because when they go for it, they are expected to act like a guy
Can you elaborate on these? Cos otherwise it reads like you're just falling-back on the same lame gender-stereotypes that we're all trying to do away with.
the typical 'entrepreneur' shows a lot of character traits that a lot of women find a tad distasteful
This man finds those traits repugnant as well, fwiw.
The rant i wrote -- a giant bullet point list, can be found here:
http://coffee.geek.nz/content/070224/where-are-women.
Ugh. That's appalling, for reals. Fucking hell.
it's not unusual
which is why "building up the female way of doing things" is a really interesting take on things
But what IS "the female way of doing things"??? It may not be pejorative, but it smacks of sexism to me.
"building up the female way of doing things"
Who knows what that is? All I know is that every group, regardless of it being women, geeks, ping pong players etc establishes a general 'way of doing things'. I think in the tech industry, there definitely is, I could list various details, but that's not the point. All I'm saying, is that if the tech industry was dominated by women instead of men, it would look different, and I want to find out and build that difference so that the entire community benefits from some diversity.
The reason I used my company as an example is that since it became female dominated, the culture changed immensely, HUGELY. It made me start to think that the text books and studies weren't a bunch of rubbish and that there actually is a culture here worth exploring, that provides an equally (if not more) successful environment for creating and growing startups and businesses.
"the reason why girls still shy away from tech is because when they go for it, they are expected to act like a guy"
Following on from my previous statement, there is no 'female way'. When you go to tech events or are even part of a male dominated company, there appear to be a lot more loud debates, self promotion and to be honest (although I know a lot of guys will jump on this, but I wouldn't say it unless I had experienced it more times than you could call freak incidents) Sexism. If you don't roll with the punches, you don't really relate to your companions and are always a little bit on the outside. This is not to say men are BAD, or that it ALWAYS happens, it's just not how I do things, and not how many girls/guys do things. (And I recognise many guys don't appreciate aspects of the current culture either).
Stephen, I'm not sure of your experiences, but I generally find that it is only the person in the room who feels uncomfortable that notices it, everyone else thinks the party's going great. "it smacks of sexism to me" - I find comments like that a little ignorant. I wonder if you have ever experienced true sexism, because in my experience, this is not it. This is a debate about females in technology. Comments like that are the kind that close down debate and are the kind I've heard many times as soon as women start to come up with our own ways of solving our own problems. What it boils down to is that there is a gender gap. What I find amusing is that mainstream tech events struggle to attract 2 females, female only tech events in the same city have 50 + attendees. Maybe it is because we are all a bunch of sexist pigs who are out to isolate men and get our own back. Maybe it is because of the reasons that we are trying to explain here.
These are all fair comments; all I want to know is what the "female way of doing things" is. Because, the logical inference is that there is a "male way of doing things"; and that possibly in the context of this discussion, the male way is no good. Like I said, pejorative or not -- a distinction like this is sexist. I'm not saying its a good or bad thing, it just is.
I'm sorry if I got your back up -- that wasn't my intention. Believe it or not we're on the same side. I just have no personal experience of these "male" and "female" ways of doing things so I want to know what you're talking about.
I actually think you are being pretty defensive Stephen. She has already said that she doesn't know what the "female way of doing things" is. Focusing on the possible negative implications for "the male way of doing things" is not really listening to the totality of what she is saying. I was getting "diversity" and you were geting "men bad". This is such an interesting conversation. Why you gotta throw the word sexism around like that and then act like you are interested in the personal experience of being female? It seems a little disingenuous, like you have already made up your mind that there are no differences. So we can explore it, but only on the understanding that it is sexist to even have this kind of discussion...
ps
looking forward to your show tomorrow Stephen
"It's almost the same experience as the subject under discussion, if you take away the gender/sex part from the equation."
It may have similarities but I am sorry but it is not quite the same thing and it isn't a competition about who gets shat on the most. You clearly have decided that "girl/boy shit -- that's SO 20th century" some of us think that there is plenty of juice left in this kind of conversation. So if I may say, as a friend, and ever so sweetly, just listen.
I've moved sideways from programming to sociology.
Some of the sociology literature suggests that children form gender-separated groups, and that enforcing both girls' time and boys' time on home computers would be a good start, to avoid having the boys dominate, and to avoid having computers culturally coded as male.
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